Monday, July 25, 2011

Novacut: Not just vaporware.

I am not here to be a cynic and say that Novacut's funding efforts will fail (again). I am writing to say that the only way for the ideas behind Novacut to be realized is to stop pretending that throwing $25K worth of funding at it could possibly save the project. Over the past year, Novacut has put almost all effort into soliciting money. In the amount of time it would've taken to implement these features in existing software, Novacut has mainly been producing advertisements for itself.

What Novacut is doing is harmful to free software, especially existing video editors. While the broader goals of the Novacut project, like decentralized collaboration, are admirable and deserve support, the project's current course will only serve to further splinter an area of free software that has already suffered enough from people thinking they can make something better from scratch.

Graph illustrating the current state of free software video editors. 

I don't like writing about this, especially knowing how much an individual has poured into this effort, but it needs to be said. I don't think that Novacut should disappear, but its current path needs serious reevaluation.

Kickstarter is a very cool platform for funding all sorts of great projects. The problem is that sometimes, maybe even often, successful funding depends on making high quality videos to advertise the project, rather than the actual ability to complete the project. Even if we let that slide, is Novacut a worthwhile project? When all existing free software projects for some purpose (like video editing) are fundamentally flawed in some way, unable to incoporate a major innovation, or simply has an unwelcoming community, then starting a new project or forking an existing one may be necessary. This is not one of those times.

Jason Gerard DeRose, the one-man show behind Novacut, wants to reinvent the wheel and the axel, build a self-powered vehicle on them, open up a mobile ice cream shop, and have you fund it for him. Don't get me wrong, Jason has some cool ideas, but the project as it exists (or is envisioned to exist) today, is doomed to failure. A list of things you wish your video editor would do is not deserving of $25K worth of funding. Novacut displays an impressive combination of setting ridiculous goals, being unwilling to collaborate with existing projects, and deceptively marketing toward artists that are not intimately familiar with the ecosystem of free software video editing.

If Novacut gets the funding Jason is asking for, the money wasted isn't even the biggest issue. Novacut is distracting from worthwhile projects and promoting a development model that doesn't work, building a bad reputation for projects that really do deserve support.

Novacut is all talk and marketing and no code. All there is to show are some simple HTML5+JavaScript video demos: a video player/scrubber does not make a desktop video editor. Spending so much time on identity and branding, and having no code beyond the tiny demos to show for it, is becoming a trend that needs to be stopped.

What even is the Novacut project? Let's try not to feel too uncomfortable while we go through their awkward buzzword-inflated infomercial-style videos.

In their first Kickstarter video, they talk about a few ideas. Jason describes his vision to create video project "source code" to let you see all the files and editing done to produce a final cut. This is commonly known as the combination of the input media files and the project or save files from the video editing tools used. Nothing magical about it. You can't create a video editor without "video source code". Every video editor has this. It's simply up to the people doing the work whether they actually share their source files. Jason describes it as if this "source code" would also be contained in the actual video file you watch, but personally, I don't want to download 50GB of source files just to watch an episode of a show.

Next, he talks about a distributed workflow. This seems to be the only "unique" idea behind Novacut, and it's a good one, but we'll get into that later. This will be powered by a piece of software Novacut is writing called dmedia, the Distributed Media Library. The demo of Novacut's reimagining of the classic video timeline, equivalent to Final Cut's storyboard mode, is rather elegant, but there is not even a mockup to illustrate how collaborative editing will look, or even any aspect of editing other than this "slice and sequence" prototype.

He closes with a brief remark mentioning a "better business model" for artists, without describing what that entails. Next, Tara Oldfield appears to discuss creating a community of "teachers and learners" again, without giving out any details, but that would require some sort of web distribution platform. Oh yes! In this interview with OMG! Ubuntu!, Jason describes the plan for monetizing Novacut:
"After the initial editor development, we'll be building an online marketplace though which artists can distribute their work to their fans, and through which fans can support the artists they love. 
Our business model is for artists to make money, and when they do, we take a cut to cover the costs of the infrastructure we provide. As we won't require exclusivity and artists will retain ownership of their work, artists will always be free to seek other venues. This puts good pressure on us to truly take care of artists, to constantly earn their business. The marketplace will allow us to fund the video editor's long-term development."

So Novacut will be tied to this online marketplace? This is turning into a rather large project. Still, the idea of an online marketplace to fund the development of a free software video editor isn't a bad idea, and it is especially nice that all videos will be required to use a copyleft license approved for free cultural works. But what about that distributed workflow? In the video for their current Kickstarter campagn, 100 tickets for their "Novacut cloud" are advertised for anyone who gives them $300 or more. So wait, even the video editing will be tied to a web service? I'm willing to bet hosting all those source files won't be cheap.

So, the Novacut project aims to build an unilateral, top to bottom, storyboarding, script writing, video editing, and distribution platform consisting of three major components: the collaboration-enabled editor itself, the community platform for distributed production, and the distribution venue. Let's ignore the last two, since the video editor itself needs to exist before those can even begin.

What has the Novacut video editor promised us? Video source code and distributed/decentralized workflows. Again, this is something every video with a "save" button already has. Novacut's solution to this seems to be storing or at least tracking all resources remotely, allowing multiple people to make changes, and then resynchronizing the changes. Not only is that not actually real-time collaboration, but this sounds like a whole mess of added complexity to both the user interface and the video "source code". Somehow, after writing yet another video editor from scratch, they will also be able to build complicated functionality to support their cloud service, a service that is not truly decentralized as you will have to host it yourself, or likely pay someone to host it for you. Jason has admitted that he has no idea how the user interface will look to support this. There are no mockups or even informal descriptions of how it could look, only a mishmash of feature ideas he wants Novacut to have and how he wants it to be perfect.

Even if they get funded, where would the money go? What can you do for 25K a year? You can barely feed one person in the USA. Developers are typically paid $90K per year. So, you manage to feed 1 person for a year, and then what, another fundraiser every few months? This is precisely why the trend of putting all efforts into Kickstarter funding needs to end. It's sad how desperate they've become, and no free software contributor should go through this:
"We've thrown ourselves into Novacut completely, and in the process have maxed out all our credit cards, burned through every drop of savings, and borrowed basically all the money we can." 
"We're desperate. We were about a week from having to pull the plug on Novacut when FCPX was released, so we thought we'd try one last ditch effort. The sacrifices we've made to work full time on Novacut the last year... have left our lives in shambles."

In public discussions on IRC channels, Jason has repeatedly refused to build upon existing video editors for a series of wishy-washy reasons along the lines of 'I don't want to be hampered in design', when he doesn't even have concrete design plans, nevermind actual mockups, and he never even attempted to work with other projects, dismissing them as projects that would not be interested in such revolutionary changes. Yet, for one thing, PiTiVi already shares the same goals as Novacut (collaborative editing has been an idea they've been interested in for a while), and a few years ago someone already started a patch that enabled realtime collaboration. There are also plans to create a storyboard mode like in the demo. Jason has failed to provide one good reason for needing to create a separate project.

In all of Novacut's videos, the project is described as if it is the first free software video editor ever, and as if it already exists. In the most recent video, they again utter all the abstract things Novacut hopes to be, and they actually say, "This thing exists". It doesn't. In a beautiful fusion of hipness and cheesy advertising speak, this entertaining infomercial goes over all of the ideas Novacut has, as if throwing money at it will suddently make them come true: automatically syncing audio, switching clips between speakers, regular backups, checking file integrity, distributed libraries of tagged media, etc. Yet, in their own words, Novacut should be adding these on to existing projects! Pros and cons? Pros: "It's open source, so any functionality that doesn't exist right now can easily be implemented in the future by the fact that any programmer can come along and...and add that functionality." Cons: "It doesn't exist yet".

Brilliant.

So, what should Novacut do?

Simple: narrow their focus.

For the video editor, Jason needs to just swallow his pride and join forces with PiTiVi, as he has been invited to again and again. It uses the same powerful backends that Novacut planned to use, but real-time collaborative editing is something that could could actually be implemented soon. PiTiVi has just implemented audio sync and multi-camera alignment, and surely the rest of Jason's revolutionary ideas can be implemented as well. Novacut's main purpose could shift from creating a new video editor, straight to building the web platform for sharing source files and distributing final projects to their audiences.

Novacut has been gaining momentum, and that should not go to waste. There are some good ideas that really deserve fruition, but unless Jason can get over the need to build his own fantastical media sharing and editing megaplatform, he won't be contributing to the advancement of free software video editing. 

115 comments:

  1. Hi, thanks for the encouragement! Some corrections:

    "Over the past year, Novacut has put almost all effort into soliciting money."

    No, we have put very little our effort into soliciting money. We tried Kickstarter once, and now a 2nd time. Which equals at most 2 months time. The rest was spent on development, design, and talk to artists.

    "Spending so much time on identity and branding, and having no code beyond the tiny demos to show for it, is becoming a trend that needs to be stopped."

    We didn't spend time on our brand identity design, it was graciously offered to us:

    http://www.design-by-izo.com/2010/09/02/giving-back-to-open-source/

    No code? Then whats this?

    https://launchpad.net/dmedia

    I know, you're going to say, "that's not a video editor". Your right, it's something much more difficult to design and implement than a video editor.

    Apparently making a video editor isn't that hard, considering that chart has like 30 of them. And the GnonLin API is very high level:

    http://gstreamer.freedesktop.org/data/doc/gstreamer/head/gnonlin/html/GnlObject.html

    But do you know how many dmedia there are? Zero. Because dmedia was really really difficult to design.

    You don't like Novacut? Fine. dmedia is worth $25k as is. Get over it.

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  2. dmedia looks like a useful bit of software. i reckon it could be used pitivi without much difficulty, especially if it gets a nice media browsing interface (something that pitivi lacks).

    Also (as the pitivi devs found out), a big chunk of required work is in the gstreamer/gnonlin backend. both pitivi and novacut will benifit from work there.

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  3. @jason
    reactionary but you didn't address his main point: you've not provided any solid reason why you want to do this alone.
    Btw if you think a nle is easy look at the number of oss ones that actually do anything. If it was easy we'd have fcp.

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  4. @jason

    "dmedia is worth $25k as is. Get over it."

    I would have funded dmedia to be built, if that's what the Kickstarter campaign was for, but it isn't.

    I would have funded the cloud storage platform for free software video editing files, if you had another project for that.

    I would have even funded the distribution platform for free cultural works made with a free editor, if you had another project for that!

    And, in fact, I think you should. But, as anonymous said, you conveniently don't address all of that, and seem to dismiss writing a usable video editor as being easy. I don't want to discourage you from doing awesome work (especially since you say "free software" at least in your first Kickstarter video, and seem to really care about free licensing as you want to use AGPLv3 and CC-BY-SA 3.0 for content), I just think you can be *more* awesome and your current plan will lead you to a dead end.

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  5. Thanks for the article, this is exactly how i feel.

    The idea that partly new, partly innovative features alone qualify the development of a new software product is wrong. The reality in software development is that only the manpower and experience matters and ideas alone are worth almost nothing. Once you're into development you'll see that the bare essentials are the real work, they decide about the success or failue. Once you get to the point were innovation counts you need to be 90% done with the rest. And then it's another 90% to finish it up. (The 90+90 rule is by Michael Abrash, once you developed a software product you'll see!).

    Fact is, they need at least ten times the money, the manpower and the experience to be able to handle this. People involved with software development can see this right away. The reluctance to collaborate with experienced open source video software developers will leave this project with no chance of success.

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  6. I wonder what pitivi could do with $25k. I am sure there are plenty of people who would like to see pitivi development speed up.

    krita recently asked for some money to sponsor a student, and got it. they seem to be one of the fastest moving foss media projects.

    I'd suspect pitivi could do the same.

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  7. I think I'm one of the people who first dropped the "vaporware" shoe in the recent OMG!Ubuntu thread.

    Well, I don't really share the "Contribute to Kdenlive or PiTiVi instead" sentiment, but I don't think Novacut is exactly innovating either.

    What was the problem to join Movie Masher which is already AJAX based and has an impressive feature set? Or join LiVES developer who already works on an online version of his editor?

    Second, they state that it won't take them a lot of time to do actual UI. That says quite a lot about their experience in programming. Doing UI is an iterative process, you never really stop.

    I'm not saying that this shouldn't be done. Online tools are the future. But here is the deal: they don't make a difference yet. Has Aviary beaten Adobe yet? Nope. After how many year? Four? Five?

    Novacut is few years away from being usable by professionals. That is for sure. I mean both implementation of features and readiness of infrastructure (uploading gigs of data on the cloud and rendering proxies, hey?)

    So I'm fine about investing into Novacut as long as they stop looking at the market in a downwards fashion.

    What I would love to see *additionally* is someone like Dan Dennedy being paid to get high bit depth support into MLT and, eventually, Kdenlive and other dependant apps. MLT and Kdenlive team are in fact on their tod maintaining half of NLE related infrastructure on Linux. They do know what to do. Just help them to get it done.

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  8. Danny: how dare you threaten my family's financial security at a time when we're truly struggling.

    Thanks for making my wife cry!

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  9. jason, maybe you are struggling because you expect other people to support you.

    when you grow up you will realize that you need to take responsibly for your own life.

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  10. Thanks Danny, someone needed to say it.

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  11. Ouch, some of these comments are a bit mean. There is no need to disparage jderose.

    That being said, I agree that writing a video editor is _no_ small task. Thinking it is shows you've not worked on one I think. The fact that there are so many just shows how difficult it is to write. Also I think that using couchdb for free syncing is a poor technical choice (for dmedia) and can be very slow at times. It would lag a lot /me thinks but would love to be proven wrong. I mostly agree with this blog post as it hits the nail on the head.

    That being said, I do wish novacut and team the best of luck! Perhaps when this is all over, a storyboard extension for pitivi and maybe even dmedia support can be written.

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  12. ^^ The fact that there are so many which have fizzled and popped.

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  13. It seems to me you are using DOUBLETHINK, because I am at a loss of arguments to make you realize that making the actual editor is *not* easy.

    > "Apparently making a video editor isn't that hard"

    Keyword: apparently.


    > considering that chart has like 30 of them.

    Yes, and they *failed*. Because starting your own project and blindly coding for a couple months is easy. Then reality sets in and you realize that getting the basics down and working well is *really* hard.

    Either you refuse to face this reality or you're feigning ignorance. In either case I personally think you will repeat history and that it's a waste to not have someone talented like you as part of an existing video editor project.

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  14. Danny: You should mention that you have personal affiliations with the PiTiVi project and the main developer behind it. Your bias is obvious.

    Just like the vitriol you pass around about OpenShot.

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  15. I don't see one single reason he could justify not joining the PiTiVi team, especially since they already have an entire application already out in the world, being used. Combining efforts with an already existing project is beauty of free software. I would like to see a professional grade video editing platform for free and have the entire project open source. I'm sure that's the goal for all the video editing projects.

    Why can't this just be done?

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  16. @Martin

    Having been a long time user of PiTiVi (and tester of OpenShot, VLMC, KDEnlive, and others), chatting with the devs is one the ways I've gotten to know the video editing ecosystem and actually want Novacut to do a good and proper job rather than reacting like most people who jut gobble up everything they hear: "A new video editor! Awesome!

    And frankly, if the Novacut guys just went ahead and worked on KDEnlive or OpenShot or VLMC instead, that'd be just as good as working on PiTiVi. The difference is that PiTiVi has the same goals, has already implemented some of Novacut's revolutionary ideas, uses the same backends, and most importantly...exists.

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  17. i dont like the attitude of

    "dmedia is worth $25k as is. Get over it."

    nor the snake oil line of "Thanks for making my wife cry! "

    nor do i see any of danny's comments justifying...

    "how dare you threaten my family's financial security"

    I personally am glad i read this before parting with my hard earned money.

    The reason i read this IS because it (kickstarter) felt like a marketing SCAM.

    A good one, but a SCAM none the less.

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  18. Anonymous: I agree with this blogpost above, but I don't think the Novacut people are scammers, they're just badly allocating their funds and community enthusiasm.

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  19. @3:04
    I feel the saddest thing is actually that they aren't scammers

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  20. Folks, let's calm down a little.

    Before I start - I love Jason and the Novacut team to bits, but I can also resonate with some of the concerns here. This is just my take on why this conflict is occuring.

    My take on this is fairly straight-forward. In assessing the Novacut project and the goals it seeks to achieve, I don't see malice or malintent from Jason or the Novacut team. I see genuine intentions to bring a quality video editing solution to Free Software. I think it is unreasonable to accuse Jason or Novacut of scamming, and their goal of funding the project is not an unreasonable one.

    Saying that, I do believe that Jason and the Novacut team do face a credibility challenge and much of this feedback is driven by this challenge. All Free Software projects set out with audacious goals and big promises, and many more fail than succeed, but we always strive to support and give these projects a chance where we can, as again, we realize that the intentions of the developers are well and fair.

    The challenge that Novacut faces is that there has been a lot of buzz about the project from the Novacut team, a lot of promises, and with the exception of dmedia, there is little to show, and I worry that this lack of tangible, visible progress is where some of this frustration is brewing -- all projects can only go on a platform of promises for so long before people start throwing around "vaporware" as a term, and to be fair, the Free Software community does get it's fair share of vaporware, so such concerns are not always without merit.

    This situation is aggrevated when money is requested. I am not surprised there are concerns with a project that has not shown much tangible progress of it's wider vision after a longish period of time and it requesting people to donate $25k to fund it's continual development - no-one wants to donate money to a cause that doesn't feel like it would use the money effectively. I am not saying that Novacut wouldn't, but I don't believe Novacut has built the credibility platform it needs to knock the ball out of the park in that regard.

    Thus, my conclusion is this:

    * commentators - your concerns around the lack of delivery of more of the Novacut vision seems reasonable, but please provide this feedback as a contructive opportunity for it to be responded to, taken into account, and iterated over from the Novacut team.
    * Jason / novacut team - I would recommend thinking carefully about how you can provide some re-assurances around the concerns shared here, to help grow the credibility and confidence in the project. This could include a better project plan, maybe change gears and focus a little more on the practical side of the project, the GUI component, and maybe provide weekly reporting and status updates to provide assurances around delivery.

    To be honest, I do believe the onus is on the Novacut team to grow this credibility, but I also believe the onus is on the community to give the Novacut team an opportunity to respond to the feedback here.

    Just my $0.02.

    Jono

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  21. So of course everyone wants to see the code. However, just as designing an interface before you implementing it will lead to a more thought out interface, doing proper research before even getting to that phase could lead to an even better interface. This is what Jason have been doing. I think that is brave experiment, lets see how it goes.
    Also, if Novacut uses Gnolin then it's basically built upon the shoulders of Pitivi.

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  22. I see nothing bad about the project- looks sincere. I say go ahead and develop some working parts- not even the whole thing, but just some code that works really well. Once people see some working parts- then it easier to invest- investing tip #1

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  23. One argument that doesn't seem to have been addressed is the worries that Novacut is duplicating effort and that they should just work on Pitivi or Openshot instead.

    It's important to consider that Novacut and Pitivi, Openshot etc. have different target users - Novacut targets professional/enthusiast users whereas Pitivi etc. target home/casual users. It makes sense that a different UI and workflow is needed for each. Analogy: GIMP, Pinta and Tux Paint have different interfaces because they have different target users but could still technically use the same backend.

    Very little in Novacut is duplicated effort. Only the design and interface, which is worth it to bring a more productive environment for artists. Otherwise, Novacut will use existing technologies like Gnonlin and Gstreamer. Any functionality they lack can be added by/on behalf of Novacut developers which will in turn benefit other projects using the same backend (like Pitivi).
    Where no such technology exists, like dmedia, it is created and separated as individual components that can be used by other software. Already there is dmedia and from dmedia there is 'filestore' and 'microfiber'.

    I think it would be really cool if other projects started to use Novacut components (Pitivi, Openshot, Shotwell etc could use dmedia).

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  24. @david4dev

    The multiple invitations of collaboration by Pitivi suggest that you might have overstated the "different audiences" of the projects, or that perhaps Pitivi (and I suspect Openshot similarly) are interested in addressing the professional/enthusiast market too.

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  25. What a bunch of hateful people. I can't understand all the spiteful, insulting and hateful comments i see direct at the novacut project in almost every "open source" website that i read daily.

    I hope that the people behind the novacut are not discouraged by this sample of human moral cowardice.

    What if they failed? We, humans, learn by our failures. Sometimes we need to fail, and fail, and fail to succeed.

    The people behind or in any other way associated with those others project, like pitivi, need to analyse their own behaviour and how that behaviour is reflected on those projects.

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  26. The above post said it all for me. The very best to Jason and the novacut team.

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  27. @david4dev: I'd like to correct you here before you spread erroneous information concerning PiTiVi's goals. We do *not* want to simply target home/casual users. Prosumers and professionals have been on our mind for a long time. See http://wiki.pitivi.org/wiki/Roadmap

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  28. Dear anonymous,

    You are missing a huge point. Yes, there is a bit of "not contributing to my project" ego around, but the biggest complain here really is that the novacut team doesn't seem to wish to understand the complexity of the undertaking. And by doing so they impose a huge credibility risk on the whole project and on open source development per se.

    This is what actually bothers people.

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  29. And I'm pretty damn sure if you ask the kdenlive folks, they will also state that their ultimate goal is to please video editing professionals, not grandma.

    There is a huge difference between vision and having the manpower to achieve that vision. All FLOSS video editing projects suffer from this critical shortage of talented manpower.

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  30. @Jeff, @Unknown - Ok sorry I was mistaken. I had just assumed that pitivi and openshot were targeted mainly at casual users because this is where pitivi does well and where openshot does excellently. I kind of guessed kdenlive was targeted at enthusiasts.

    On the roadmap wiki page the collaborative editing and MAM features are marked as 'not started' and link to dmedia as a possible solution. Surely this proves my point about sharing components.

    I don't think having multiple projects with slightly different visions is a bad thing. I wish my best to all of the projects :)

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  31. @david4dev

    You think that further fragmentation of human resources and hence slower development pace is not a bad thing. Understood :)

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  32. @david4dev:

    Sure :)
    For the record, Pitivi has targetted this user segment since day one, but it's already so hard to get the "basics done right" that people judge the current state of the software and think that we only want to be a clone of iMovie (which is not the case).

    Realtime collaborative editing has been on our wishlist since 2009 at least (possibly older but I'm having trouble finding archives of that other than blog posts).

    The reason why dmedia has been added as an interesting idea in the pitivi roadmap a year ago is that I've been trying to convince Jason to simply work on integrating dmedia on Pitivi and improving our UI, instead of starting his editor from scratch. I have yet to see anything that could not be done in Pitivi if only he was willing to come up and do it there.

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  33. Is this acceptable behavior?

    http://twitter.com/#!/DPic/status/95715815231467520

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  34. I don't think I've ever seen so much hate towards a FLOSS project simply because it went it's own way, perhaps besides Oracle. I mean, if this is how you respond to conflict, I could see why people like Jason might not want to get involved with the PiTiVi people.

    I like to see projects make it when there's people trying to tear it down. Now I'm off to increase my pledge. My best wishes to the Novacut team.

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  35. Could all those anonymous posters please stop concern-trolling.

    This should be an engineering decision, evaluated on those merits, just ignore the tone.

    It is thus no surprise that those most likely to support this project do not write code themselves, while those which do will have more reservations about how realistic Novacut is being.

    http://ometer.com/hacking.html is worth a read.

    - John (Untitled above, silly blogger)

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  36. To all the people saying their is no UI, mock-up's have been done and posted on vimeo.
    http://vimeo.com/groups/novacutartistdiaries/videos/26686605

    The layout so far is very different to a traditional video editor. I've a little bit experience in editing beyond home video and novacut looks relevant to me in a way that Pitivi and openshot don't. They both have the standard one area for all media, one preview window. Avid, FCPX and Premiere Pro have a complicated interface for a reason, more options.

    In your diagram novacut is an offshoot of dmedia. This is incorrect, dmedia is not a video editor in itself. Its a media manager.

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  37. I think the model that Novacut is very intuitive for a lot of clips, like is the case with even the smallest film projects.

    Being able to render effects on an other machine that you actively cutting on is a godsend.

    Professional editing can be broken up into a couple of stages:

    Finding good shots, setting a couple of different in and out points. Cool feature would be able to tag them and compare clips with the same tags.

    Aligning (Props on that feature in Pitivi). Both video and audio. Lot's of different requirements there. Canon makes this a little bit better that tapes, where clips are broken into different files.

    Putting clips together. The storyboard interface seems interesting in this regards, though I have to see how it word with sound effects and the score. That includes fades between clips.

    Adjusting the clips, that is color correct them. Applying effects on those clips and so on.

    ...I probably forgot something

    And I don't like the Kitchen sync approach on this, why does everybody have to mimic the Microsoft Office disaster.

    Having those tools as separate independent processes is very beneficial. They work independent of each others.

    But please do try to reuse code were possible.

    There is so much time wasted editing movies, please stop bickering and start making it better.

    The projects are using the same mechanisms, and you both use python so you benefit from each other no matter what you do.

    And stop trying to push Pitivi as it stands currently as the solutions for these problems, or even for that matter OpenShot, Kdenlive. You can's shoehorn this kind of workflow into them, they work well for what they are designed for.

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  38. Users want a Video-editor for Linux that:

    1. works rock-solid
    2. allows for editing all modern formats
    3. has a learning-curve that is not too steep
    4. has features beyond basic editing such as filter-plugins and compositor

    No video-editor for Linux fullfills all these points. KDEnlive comes near but fails too often in point 1 wich is the nemesis for more or less all others too.

    Now there is a new project, that does not even mention these basic needs. And it is advertized in a way that makes the stomach turn for most people, that are the given audience for free software: people, that do *not* tick like the average consumer, that only existst in the twisted fantasy of advertisement-engineers anyway.

    I write for magazines here in Germany and I can assure you: the real people out there want points 1-4 as listed above. And if they are into video-editing for a bit more than just cutting their vacation-clips a little, 9 out of 10 of them keep dualbooting to do it with one of the established propietary solutions out there.

    So having a paid team of devs working fulltime on KDEnlive, Lumiera or Pitivi to get that point 1 solved for good and add some progress to point 4 could improve the situation a lot. A shiny new project promising exxiting new features for a not-too-far but not decided yet when to come future will not.

    ReplyDelete
  39. I think the main reason Novacut wants to do this alone is because it's trying for a very focused and hassle-free user interface, which would be nearly impossible to accomplish when working with an existing project that already has a wide user base. Because if PiTiVi was to lose functionality to provide a more focused workflow, then its users would get upset, and if Novacut just extended PiTiVi, then it could never provide the smooth workflow that it's going for.

    I personally really like the way Novacut's turning out so far. I rarely get excited about open-source projects, since they mostly tend to turn out to be bad, bloated copies of what's already out there. Novacut is not trying to emulate any piece of software out there, and it's aiming for simplicity and ease of use, not feature parity with other software. That's something that's desperately needed in the FLOSS community right now.

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  41. It is crucial to have freedom of starting a new project. Projects then compete, and better projects obtain more users and more developers. Thus, one should not worry if then some projects fail, that is just part of the progress.

    However, the competition between projects should be healthy (based on features, easiness of use) and starting a campaign against a newly made project is unhealthy. More like Microsoft's tactics.

    "Jason has failed to provide one good reason for needing to create a separate project."

    Though I'm an outsider I don't agree with the logic here. Novacut does not need reasons to be a project. At the end, the users are those who will be deciding which is the better project. Thus, if you want PiViTi to succeed, contribute to it, make sure it does not fall behind Novacut or some other project, but let others to do their thing.

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  42. Well, the deadline has passed and Novacut's blog hasn't been updated since the 5th of July. They gotten more money than they've asked for.

    I wouldn't mind been proven wrong but I will say this, with no code other than DMedia (which is NOT Novacut) and nothing to show other than a campaign to raise money, comments like...

    "Danny: how dare you threaten my family's financial security at a time when we're truly struggling.

    Thanks for making my wife cry!"

    ...are EXACTLY the sort of thing I'd expect to see from a scammer who's just been rumbled.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Let's just repeat what anonymous said:

    "What a bunch of hateful people. I can't understand all the spiteful, insulting and hateful comments i see direct at the novacut project in almost every "open source" website that i read daily.

    I hope that the people behind the novacut are not discouraged by this sample of human moral cowardice.

    What if they failed? We, humans, learn by our failures. Sometimes we need to fail, and fail, and fail to succeed.

    The people behind or in any other way associated with those others project, like pitivi, need to analyse their own behaviour and how that behaviour is reflected on those projects."

    Totally agreed. I admit that this post raises some fair points, but the style is purely destructive, and I have no idea why anybody would talk like that. Your main goal, dear poster, was to make the Kickstarter campaign fail. (proof is that you even tweeted it explicitly) This is just disgusting if you ask me. Even if - I repeat - you might be right on _some_ details. You must be pretty frustrated now that they managed to raise the money. Honestly, I don't even care if they fail and my money goes to just feeding these people. They are trying.
    "good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement"
    Who are you to decide who should raise crowdfunding and who shouldn't? The open source community is about diversity, so saying they make a bad impact on the whole thing just doesn't make sense.

    By the way, PiTiVi has been around for 7 years now, according to your graph. Where is the breakthrough? Are you saying they do it better? Because it is certainly not suitable for serious work at all. Cinelerra was started 8 years ago? Lumiera 5 years ago? What are we talking about? There is no single software out there I would consider usable for serious work. I still dualboot for that reason.

    So after 1 year "only" having dmedia to show doesn't seem much worse to me than what other projects can show after more than half a decade of development.

    And about marketing. Many people in the FOSS community have some religious phobia of capitalism, but I'm sorry, having a public trac page is not gonna bring your product to the masses. Movie editor people are not geeks. Get real. Open source should not be about some far-left political frustration, so what is your problem with marketing?

    By the way, I wonder what people think about Lightworks. That could render the whole debate pointless. (well, more or less, as I doubt it will be fully open and GPL licensed)

    ReplyDelete
  44. @Vizslah

    >And about marketing. Many people in the FOSS community have some religious phobia of capitalism,

    While I agree with you, that a public trac-page is a poor way to bring an application to end-users, the hatred towards capitalism among FOSS-people seems sensible to me. Many people are into FOSS. because they are fed up to the brim with the style of communication that is typical for the traditional industry.

    Show me a single person, that dares to say, that advertisement is a reliable, sane and credible source of information.

    To get to the point: if the novacut-people ask the community for money, they should deliver some information, what they are about to do for it and how they plan to achieve it and what they have done before in that field.

    As far as I know, they *could* have done all that pretty well. Jason has some merits for contributing to other projects etc. But they choose to try it the way, the traditional industry works. So maybe they should ask the traditional finance-system for money?

    Compare this project with Ardour (ardour.org).

    The users contribute about twice the money, novacut is asking for per year. And the way, Paul Davis asks for the money is by far not a s smooth and cosy as the book of modern marketing dictates. So why the heck Ardour gets its money anyway? Because Davis delivers. Ardour was a completely working, powerfull application when the project started to ask the community for funding.

    And the project gets its money while the application is developed in a way one would expect from paid developers. Even though the payment is by far not as fat as it should be.

    ReplyDelete
  45. @zettberlin

    Ardour seems to be a good example of handling donations. I'm really interested in these kinds of funding models and I believe it has the potential. I also agree that it is a lot more elegant to ask for money after a first release, especially after the diaspora story. But I definitely don't think starting a Kickstarter campaign is immoral or wrong in any way. Backers can decide.

    I agree there are reasons why one would think it's not worth backing them, as it might fail. But I think the proper behavior in this case would be not to back them and click away. I don't see why would anybody attack a team just because their marketing strategy is too capitalist for one's taste.

    Advertisement is not a credible source of information, but it is important for success. It's true that Novacut needs to work on their other communication channels to provide more detailed info on their workflow to those who are interested.

    It's really the question of what is the community actually fighting for? For freedom? So respect Jason's individual decision and style then. Or against capitalism? I at least hope you're not willing to sacrifice freedom for that.

    Either way, I think attacking somebody with no apparent reason, in the middle of his Kickstarter campaign, cannot be justified by any philosophy or reasoning.

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  48. "Apparently making a video editor isn't that hard, considering that chart has like 30 of them"

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    Came across this item while (again) browsing for alternatives to Kino. It has limited features, and works only on DV files (given anything else it first converts to DV, which takes time and space), but it is still the only Linux video editor that I ever have come across that does not crash or hang randomly. I so wish there were others...

    ReplyDelete
  49. So why the heck Ardour gets its money anyway? Because Davis delivers. Ardour was a completely working, powerfull application when the project started to ask the community for funding.

    And the project gets its money while the application is developed in a way one would expect from paid developers. Even though the payment is by far not as fat as it should be.

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  50. I agree there are reasons why one would think it's not worth backing them, as it might fail. But I think the proper behavior in this case would be not to back them and click away. I don't see why would anybody attack a team just because their marketing strategy is too capitalist for one's taste.

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  72. There is a simple reason why Jason won't work with already established projects such as PiTiVi, because he sees this project as a way to earn a living in the long run. Nothing wrong with that of course, but it's very deceitful to prey upon the open source community to meet that end goal. We'll never see an expenditure report for the $25k+ he's raised because things like plasma TV's, Xbox'es and expensive dinners and nights out on the town with the wife are the kind of thing that will hurt future funding and convince everyone it's just a scam. He may have bought a new hard drive and some blank DVD's for backups (of course a new laptop doesn't hurt either, right?). If he hired a programmer no doubt there is a contract involved where all the work would be owned by Jason (not really true to Open Source now is it?). Bottom line, whomever funded this guy wasn't funding Open Source software, you were funding a lazy and deceitful con artist achieve his own personal desires of monetary gain. Yeah, let's see those receipts.

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  94. so the Novacut does not need reasons to be a project. At the end, the users are those who will be deciding which is the better project. Thus, if you want PiViTi to succeed, contribute to it, make sure it does not fall behind Novacut or some other project, but let others to do their thing. thanks for the great information and very informative discussion. come again with new and informative ideas
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